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It’s always a learning experience to hear what people outside the church think about those of us “inside” the church. This is a sobering example.
This myspace blog titled “The End of Christianity” from a person that calls themself “Human Evolution” has been getting some serious internet buzz (shout out to Chris for sending it to me). The top of the page offers a 37 second YouTube video of Richard Dawkins that begins with him reading the words, “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction.” He goes on to describe God as “vindictive, unforgiving, unjust, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, homophobic, and racist.”
As you scroll down the page you’ll begin to read the rantings of someone who is obviously very upset with God… someone really hurting.
Some might be inclined to get angry with what you read. I beg you to read with an eye of compassion. My guess is that most of us have someone living a few doors down from us who thinks just like. Have you ever stopped to listen to their thoughts? Have you ever read between the lines to see what’s behind these words?
For example. Read this small excerpt:
Regardless of the fact that God does not exist in scientific terms, many have spent their lives as devout Christians; they ask God to spare one second to talk to them or to give them a small sign, but many (including myself) are ignored, even when we pray the “right” way and for the “right” reasons God epitomizes the deadbeat father. When we have dozens of people praying for us, nothing happens, as the study mentioned above shows. While God is silent to our prayers, there are children slowly dying of starvation every 5 seconds, there are natural disasters claiming the lives of millions, and there are viruses using innocent hosts in the most detestable ways.
Do you hear the undertones in this writing? Do see you see the life experience? “They ask God to spare one second to talk to them or to give them a small sign, but many, including myself, are ignored…”
The entire blog brings up issues like this, tough questions, and real feelings from a real person.
This is a good example of the philosophies our kids are going to encounter in the real world. Are they prepared for these conversations? (We talked a lot about this in our podcast episode #12 with Dan Kimball)
According to one of the comments on this blog page… we aren’t. This guy threw these darts at Christianity, basically concluding that Christians are completely ignorant:
The reason Christianity remains is because of several reasons:
1. Christians don’t read their Bibles, nor do they know the history of their religion.
2. Christians do not know that the arguments they think prove their case are not valid logical arguments.
3. Christians don’t know how their Bible was compiled, nor do they know the politics involved with the process.
4. Christians don’t know (or won’t accept) that their Bible is flawed scientifically and it proves many contradictory answers to important questions (such as suffering).
Despite the meaning behind his claim, are these accusations wrong?
Hmmmmmm.
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It seems like the atheistic/agnostic movement is getting more militant. is Bill Mahr of “religulous” fame trying to free us dumb believers from the chains of belief in a highter power. i googled richard dawkins and he has the same fervor to his rhetoric. they “protesteth too much”. there is a youtube where a girl asks dawkins “what if your wrong?” and he just carves her up (never answering the question btw). i want to say chill out guys, we’re just a blip of chromosomes that will be gone tomorrow if you’re right. why be so upset
http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=9582
excerpt from article about Dawkins’ book.
“Then there’s The Dawkins Delusion? by Oxford scholars Alister and Joanna McGrath, which, as the title suggests, deals with Richard Dawkins’s popular book The God Delusion. The McGraths pull no punches about Dawkins’s book; in fact, they ask, “Is the case for atheism really so weak that it has to be bolstered by such half-baked nonsense?”
Lest you think that’s going a little too far, the atheistic philosopher Michael Ruse actually endorsed the McGraths’ book by saying that Dawkins’s work “makes me embarrassed to be an atheist, and the McGraths show why.”
I would agree with some of the accusations, that we often don’t “know enough” about our faith history. However, I don’t see the Bible as a scientific book. I don’t think all of our arguments have to be logical.
I love this time of just asking questions, but we also need to give people answers about the truth.
Jonathan: I started reading a really useful book along these lines that I wanted to pass along. It’s called “No One Sees God” by Michael Novak and it’s about doubt and faith in both atheists and believers. I really recommend it as you keep on thinking about this conversation, and I’m checking out the site you mentioned while I’m working through it too. God bless!
i just read my comments and i am really confusing. it’s hard to tell when i’m sarcastic. sorry. this subject is knocking my socks off though. religion is so evil to so many people. this may kick off a good lesson for you: why do evolutionists hate Pascal’s Wager so much? i’d love to hear Jonathan’s thoughts about PW.
I don’t agree about the “end of Christianity.” The religion constantly morphs, mutates, and evolves. Yesterday’s dogmas are today’s metaphors, bereft of epistemological substance. Can you believe that 57% of US Christian evangelicals believe there are many roads to eternal life? Ask any about any moral question and you’ll have Christians on opposite sides.
The questions you cite make completely accurate points, but I think they miss the larger issue: when is Christianity no longer Christianity?
Disclaimer: Found your blog because some random person added (followed) me on Twitter (even though I havn’t a single tweet!), and he links to you.
“Despite the meaning behind his claim, are these accusations wrong?”
While his accusations were generalized, which is never a good thing to do to make an argument, I think his accusations do have merit. I am of the opinion that if Christians did read the bible, they would question it just like I did in the 10 years or so it took for me to finally call myself an atheist. In the beginning, I didn’t even know what an atheist was, I was just a kid in Sunday school asking how Noah got animals from Australia and the U.S. The bible is full of hate, mostly in the old testament, but even Jesus advocated slavery, and gave advice on how to beat them. The old testament also says gay people should be put to death, and says it’s okay to stone disobedient children. For those that say the hateful rhetoric of the Old Testament doesn’t matter, then why are it’s stories still taught as fact? It sounds like picking and choosing to me. I’m glad that Christians pick and choose, otherwise we’d have a country run similar to Islam’s despicable Sharia law.
I didn’t read this MySpace page you talk about, so it may already be covered, but my favorite argument is that the bible is man made. It was written by men, decades after Jesus’ death, and even more. Ever play the telephone game? I guarantee most of Jesus’ quotes are made up, and of the opinion of the authors. And since then, it has been edited, stuff added, stuff taken out, for political reasons (Constantine). If that isn’t a man-made god, I don’t know what is. Plus, these men claimed to hear voices. Think about that. All religions are like that. Written by men, which is painfully obvious by the way women are second class people in them.
The very first question I asked though as a kid in Sunday school, that got me doubting, is why there are so many other religions in the world, and how we know ours is the right one. Each religion would give you the same rhetoric about faith and what not.
The reason god (if there is one) doesn’t answer our prayers or do anything about babies born sick/crippled, is because those are things “we” expect a god to do. We made up those traits of what a god should do. Humans have made everything there is about gods. We gave them their names even. If there is a god, I guarantee it’s not one that human’s have made or given names to. We therefore know nothing, and have no idea about the true creator (if there is one).
God is a man-made concept, and that’s why I’m an atheist.
I’ve read the Myspace Blog and I think that the arguments there are very valid.
I believe that the poster above me made a good point about the bible being written by man, edited and re-edited to suit the needs of the ruling class of the time (Constintine, King James).
Also Christians will say how the old testament is invalid since birth and death of Jesus. Quite the opposite. 1 – Whether it’s the old testament with all it’s racism, misogny, slavery, bigotry, murder or the New Testament – it’s the same god – he didn’t change. 2 – Jesus is quoted in the New Testament that he didn’t come to CHANGE the law he came to UPHOLD it.
Add to that you make a claim that the blog author is someone who is hurt and angry with god, have you ever spoken to him? Have you ever conversed with him to ask him why he thinks the way he does? I’m guessing you haven’t or you wouldn’t jump to such baseless and presumputious assumptions.
Couldn’t agree more with your last words Leah. Was going to post my own opinion regarding the matter, but I thought I’d see if someone else said it first.
It’s called “begging the question.” And this is the argument of all religions. Some how being married with three kids makes you a credible source on life?! Get out of here dude. The religious delusion lives on.
Sorry you feel that way. Indeed… I’m just a humble dude with three kids.
Side note- response to Leah. True believers of Christ don’t say the old testament is invalid. Far from it. Jesus came to fulfill the old testament. I encourage you to read some of the New Testament and read who Jesus was, what he was like… you might be surprised what you discover.
I fully support the blog you speak of here in yours. Being vocal about Atheism is no different than the religious being vocal about their own beliefs. What many fell to realize is that 90% of the people who are atheist on the blogs have read the bible and in fact where Christians at one point and time.
My life is wonderful I am not lacking some sort of joy in my life by not being religious. This is a very common misconception about non-believers.
What I strive for is a secular view where religious people respect my right not to believe like they do and I do the same in return. It would also be nice if the religious had a full understanding on science before they talk about its falseness. I have studied religions so it would only seem equal for others to study science before they fully discount it.
In fact I would recommend Ken Miller he is a Biologist who writes text books and he is also a Catholic.
It’s tough times for ideologues of any stripe, at this point. I think I can speak for most nonbelievers when I say the contempt and distrust aimed at Christians is more of a rage against a willfully ignorant, unreasoning, and arrogant mass populace. In my opinion, the association with people of faith in this case in an unfortunate and misguided one. Others would disagree.
However I think it is becoming increasing clear that the ancient behavioral patterns and social constructs are becoming less and less valid.
My conclusion is that the time for pointing fingers has passed, and each of us as individuals need to soundly reevaluate what’s important to us, why, and what that means.
Face it, all religions come to an end, and Christianity is less influential in the Western world now than it was during its heyday in the Dark Ages. Religion is a cultural artifact like language and politics, and will continue to evolve new forms. Just as the gods of Olympus mutated into new symbols and were assimilated by Christianity, so the Christian myths will find new life in the myths of the future. The Religious Right is a very temporary social fad that has profited from a feeling of being surrounded and under attack, but now their era has passed as well, supplanted by science, rationality and Eastern thought.
The standard God requires of us in the Bible is to love God with all our hearts and our neighbor as ourselves. Good standards. If you can’t accept the first, then loving our neighbor as ourselves is certainly a commendable one.
Unfortunately so many who call themselves believers (Christains) don’t do a good job at either standard.
That said, nothing we say changes the fact that God is. The only way we can know there is a God is that he reveals himself to us. He has created us with free choice to we chose – note we chose whether to believe or not.
There is a bottom line that every person must face – death. The writer of the Hebrews letter in the New Testament says, “It’s appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment.”
There does come a time when all speculation and discussion ends.
As a believer I have both sides covered. If there is no God, then my life has been good and now even into my 70’s I enjoy life and have been blessed with many things.
If there is a God, and I beleive there is, then I am also covered because I believe I have a personal relationship with Him as the Bible says I can.
So, in death, all my bases are covered.
At the rate we are going it will be a very long time until christianity and the other religions are gone. I hope and dream that humanity will make it beyond these myths to a point where the lies and delusions are replaced by truth.
I refuse to adopt any label on faith because there are morons on all sides that I don’t want to be associated with.
On the Christian Churchfolk side, there is obvious corruption. The church brings in billions of untaxed dollars a year and the heads of the catholic church are immensely wealthy, even though the bible says “it’s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle”. Doesn’t it seem suspiciously convenient for such an organization that the Church says that God punishes those that do not believe the word of the Church – who merely claim to speak the word of God? Also, isn’t the idea that God needs you to believe in him absurd? Would a supreme being really be that insecure? I think that if he is real and he is conscious, then he would know that he’s real and believe in himself with good reason. If god truly does judge, then surely the criteria would be how much you’ve hurt or helped your fellow conscious beings.
On the other hand, when atheists see how much of an obvious scam the church is (because it is actually really obvious once you stop being afraid), then they dismiss god by association. The truth is, nobody knows if God is real and nobody knows what happens when you die. Anybody that says they do is lying to themselves, perhaps because they don’t like uncertainty. Many people say they’ve experienced God – mainly people tripping on Psychedellics, but also others – but there is no way to tell if it’s god or if it’s you. We each have the power to make magical things happen with a molecule called DMT, which we release into our own brains every night during sleep, but we CAN also release consciously. It could have been an example of a miracle or God, and if you’d been looking for an example of this your whole life you would probably say it was, but you don’t know if it was a divine god or you.
I see no reason why we can’t all agree, because while our ideas may differ, the truth is the same for everybody. If what God is is consciousness, and what you and I are, beyond the DNA and life experiences, is similarly consciousness, then in a sense what god is and what you are is the same, and you are made in god’s image.
Doesn’t it seem reasonable that if god does exist – and I have a feeling he does – he would want you to be as intelligent as possible. Wouldn’t he want you to stop being afraid, thinking you need to dedicate your time to worshipping him, and start doing everything in your power to save the world from the greed and fear in which we are enmeshed.
Please note that I say ‘he’ only because it flows well. A being beyond body wouldn’t have genitals. The whole debate about whether god is a man is really stupid.
interesting Sid. I appreciate your openmindedness.
Just a note though- I’ve spent most of my life hanging out with pastors and other people in ministry. 99% of them are not even close to what people would call rich. The church I attend, the pastor is the most giving person I know. Nothing currupt there. But yes… there are a few “turds” out there that stink up the whole lot. It’s sad that the perception about Christians is often based on them, not on people who truly reflect Christ.
Thanks again for your comments.
God is everything and is everywhere. He is the truth, the love, the answer and the question itself. We are to small to understand the concept of God, so we are to small to understand the concept of truth, love, everything and everywhere. The Bible is a bunch of metaphorical shit and, above this, IT IS IMPORTANT and SACRED only because it explains THE MEANING in a way that the individual CANNOT explain. It doesn’t matter WHO wrote the Bible. It doesn’t matter WHO started Budhism, or Hinduism, or whatever religion. It is important to extract the meaning of that ideology. When you fight about HOW REAL IS THAT GOD or MY GOD IS BETTER THAN YOURS, etc., you don’t have enough faith in yourself based on the religion you accept. I cannot explain my relation with GOD, but I can accept any ideology if it is described as a PERSONAL belief in a WAY that I can consider SINCERE.
I read the Myspace Blog and I think that the arguments there are very true.
I appreciate your thoughts.
I have faced many difficulties in my own life and at times feel like God abandons me as well doing nothing when I need him to do something fast. Well I’m still alive, still going, still Christian. Guess Satan’s attack by what I can see in my life hasn’t affected my faith that much. That’s just it, it is faith, not what we see in the natural.
christians had been writing about how hinduism will collapse for long time. you we are seeing india to become a hindu country very soon . hindusim is old song and it may not be popular but it will be their for ever. christianity is new song and it get its glory and it fades and no one ever hear about it after its glory is over until then new songs are going to emerge to prove it is false song. all the songs are documented and people will listen when they wake up from deep sleep of ignorense
it’s all about the Privatisation Of A Faith Which by its very nature is a most public faith. Believers are commanded to go Into the whole world and proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. But the secularist mafia for believers to be shut up at home in Their little prayer closets, or have church services Which have absolutely no bearing on the World Around Them.
What did the commenter above mean by “I don’t think all our arguments have to be logical,,,,,but we also need to give people answers about the truth”? Truth as we see it, right? But illogical.
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